Scripting issues

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Scripting issues

Postby Memphis » Fri Apr 04, 2003 1:36 am

Original Message By Knighthawk of Team Orin

The Proceeding is for All Orin Members, Orin Clan Affiliates, and any Orin prospects...

Tonight I was playing with a few members of Orin and MGN and I came across a player who was using scripts for firing his pistol and light machine gun. I left the server in disgust because cheating by anyone detracts from the game.

A script is a set of commands binded to one or more keys that allows for quick firing or switching weapons by smashing one or more buttons while not missing a step in battle. One script I am aware of is binding your mouse wheel buttons to shoot twice with one rotation. Another is to turn your FPS to 99 so it almost gives you a speed advantage.

Though it does give you the advantage in battle, CHEATING IS WRONG. It does not pay to cheat a cheater as well. Team Orin has been built upon Honesty and trust not only in forums, discussiona and IRC, but in game as well. Having cheats, scripts, hacks, and anything else that gives you an unfair advantage agaisnt the opponent will NOT BE TOLERATED under any circumstances. ANYONE playing on our server or any server where we know the Administrators who is suspected or caught using any forms of cheating will be dealt with accordingly by Clan leaders.

Again, cheating is wrong, be the bigger person and don't sink down to another's level by cheating. Build up your skills and have a great time. The Clan members will try and show you a great time as well by working together to eliminate cheating using various methods.


addition by Memphis


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with KnightHawk, even though scripting is just altering your basic controls it does give you unfair advantage in comparison to any player that plays the game its intended to be played. It ruins the experience and I felt that it should be drawn to the attention of NS public. It is one thing to aim well and tap your mouse button in a panic frenzy to launch off a spray of bullets but it is another to just hold down a combination of buttons and get a fire rate of an HMG when in fact it is a pistal. Nevertheless it ruins the fun for everyone. I'll be bringing this issue up to several other major forums as well. If we have consensus that scripting is not welcome less people will do it or else be punished.

Sincerely
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Postby Niteowl » Fri Apr 04, 2003 8:37 am

yes, this is a given, no? but thanks for the post.

sorry, while i read this, the only thing that kept popping up in my mind was a simpson's quote
"Eating animals is wrong"
"Yes, Lisa, so very wrong"

annnnyyywhooo. yeah, scripting is silly, no debate about it. Flayra even coded for quick switches to mess up the player ( past version?..), i think it SLAYED them, actually. the quick switch detection was to stop, you guessed it, SCRIPTING :)

but CD on your servers Orin, you'll find you get less scripters.

nice to see ya,

cheers,
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Postby SputGop » Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:54 pm

Quickly switching your weapon is cheating? :shock:
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Postby Niteowl » Fri Apr 04, 2003 3:04 pm

nonono.

using a SCRIPT to switch weapons is cheating. accoring to Flayra, which is good enough for me.

in previous versions, NS would detect switching weapons TOO FAST as a sign that someone is using a SCRIPT, and would INSTA GIB them. this is a sign from the NS team that scripting is NOT cool (yes, even the uber leap chomp script you got).

problem was, some ppl WERE that fast, and would get killed just cause they were skilled enought to
parasite/leap/chomp/xeno within .1 of a second thereby killing 5 marines and a tfac ;)

but would get unfairly SLAIN. :(
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Postby Jabberwock » Fri Apr 04, 2003 8:55 pm

This is bullshit. Using quake scripting is fair in my world, and I'm not playing in any other world. You let me know if that means I should take the tags off.

Scripting and cheating are unrelated activities. As far as I can tell, thinking otherwise is a sign of noobish tendencies.
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scripts

Postby zzSleeper » Fri Apr 04, 2003 9:05 pm

while some scripts may be cheating, most are not

if you write it yourself i see no problem with it as long as it doesn't give you an advantage over other players that they could not reproduce physically

auto-pistol scripts are fine, would you rather have ppl get carpel-tunnel from clicking quickly? what's the issue?

fast weapon switching????
what do you think the CVAR hud_fastswitch is for?
this is really not something you should be complaining about

personally, i am disdainful of ppl who don't write their own scripts. it's very poor tact and borderline cheating imo

for the most i part agree with jeremy's statesments

there are many client-side tweaks that make the game more enjoyable and scripting is just one of them, don't complain about a *FEATURE* built into the game
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Postby McRiot » Sat Apr 05, 2003 3:06 am

I knew this would get jabbers attention real quick :P

so i guess this is where I stand on it, I used to frown upon scripting still do I guess on certain kinds of scripts. CS is most my experience with scripts and I found it irritating those who used scripts to exploit a bug like for example switch weapons from awp to pistol and back again that way the AWP would not have to be reloaded, this I think is cheating and very lame. However, I've grown to believe their are good scripts and it can be helpfull fingers get tired of doing the same thing all the time just to make one thing that will give you an edge work. I don't use scripts myself mostly just lazy I guess.

Clean scripts is not cheating IMO and really shouldn't be even near what cheating really is. Good players that want to be great at a game and love the game for everything it's worth will use scripts to make their controls simpliar and that is fine by me. other things like binding your mouse wheel for extra shots may be an advantage to the unsuspecting n00b but I can kill you just as easy without binding my wheel thus not really an advantage more of a preference.

Scripting is a lot like saying I have an advantage over you because I have a better mouse (TRACKBALL OWNZ YOU ALL :)) or better hardware. Someone will always have an advantage over you due to his/her computer setup, graphiccard/hardware. So to get a leg ahead buy a super computer.

Now cheating on the other hand is anything that exploits a bug for an advantage, aimbots and wall hacks don't just give you advantages over the common n00b it gives you an advantage over everyone that enters the server no matter how good or good their equipment is. Cheating ruins the game period and should not be tolerated.

Point being NOT all scripting is bad IMO
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Postby The Nighthawk » Sat Apr 05, 2003 8:40 am

Ah, our first debate! Though it's not really a debate yet, at the very least Jabberwock has drawn his line in the sand against Orin's statements :) .

Matt states a very eloquent position, and one that I agree with. Like him, I'm too lazy to write any scripts, but it is a feature that the game engine provides. So long as the script doesn't build itself around a game engine exploit, such as bunnyhopping for insane extra speed (not the wild jumping to dodge skulk bites :roll: ) I have no problem with them. If you want to slap out all 10 pistol shots in the blink of an eye, all the power to you. But know that you can't change your aim once the script starts, and if I manage to dodge, I'll eat you when you reload :twisted: .

I am actually curious though, now that the topic has come up, what scripts do people use? I haven't seen a single thing in game to suggest than anyone uses any (saying it like that makes it sound like cheating doean't it? /observation), at least nothing that couldn't be reproduced by quick fingers. I' not asking for your code, as Jon says if you can't write it yourself learn how, but what they accomplish to ease the strain of playing.
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oh boy

Postby Memphis » Sun Apr 06, 2003 2:29 am

Oh boy look at what I started. Well heres an example of what scripting were used in NS, that night by 2 players I will not recall by name *cough* *cough* Forlift and Roadrunner. This was the major one that ticked me off... the fire rate of the LMG was changed so dramaticly that those 2 guys can fire off a whole clip in half a second when in normal play it takes 3.6 seconds. So we couldn't kill them no matter what all they had one get one tap off and we were gone. Another was they had increase speed and I have no idea what type of scripting can do that... they said changing the video cards setting to 99 enables u to run faster and play faster than most people, also glid in the air forever with jet packs....
I don't know how it all works... I'm too much of a goody goody...
Sincerely
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Postby Jabberwock » Sun Apr 06, 2003 4:17 am

I highly doubt that client-side scripting can accomplish either of the effects Memphis is describing. In particular, the LMG ROF is fixed; I've checked. Perhaps my art is not simply deep enough, but I doubt that this is scripting. On the other hand, one (anyone) can get a substantially higher rate of fire out of the pistol than is immediately obvious, because the manual cycle rate is a lot higher than the automatic cycle rate, and scripting can make it easier to achieve this. I experimented with this, decided that HL scripting (slightly lobotomized relative to Q1 scripting, to my chagrin) coundn't achieve what I wanted, and left it at that.

In short, I think that KnightHawk is seeing cheating, and falsely accusing scripting, a piece of inflamatory ignorance that I find fairly tiresome and typical. I can't count the number of times, playing Tribes, that I got told that using scripts was cheating. Slightly different case, of course, in that Tribes has a much more serious need for scripts, and more serious scripting language to facilitate that. Hum ha, attempting to not begin rant about superiority of Tribes.... ngggggggrrrrrrrr.....



In answer to Nighthawk, I haven't found a need in NS, although as I say I considered a pistol script. I note that FOV is not available, so I haven't built a multi-zoom script, unlike Quake. The closest thing is that I've bound mouse1, mousewheelup, and mousewheeldown all to +attack. So I use mouse1 for most purposes, and when I wanna hose someone with the pistol, I flick up and down on the wheel (a substitute for all the clitoral stimulation I'm not doing this year, whups was that my out-loud voice?). Because using the wheel for weapon switching is noobly. (whups, just described a bunch of people who're better than me as noobly... d'oh! I still think it's true, though).

I don't agree with Jon about downloading scripts being borderline cheating, either. We discussed it in voice, after his and my last posts, and I see what he means, but I think that such a statement is the wrong fix to the same issue that I fix by wanting to be able to give people scripts. Specifically, I claim that his underlying issue is the same as mine, namely equalizing playing skill in some sense, and that this is best served by giving everyone whatever scripts enable them to play their best.

On which subject, somewhat off the main topic, I think you all know how impatient I am with novices in general, and noobs (ie chronic novices) in particular. And I hope that some of you have also noticed that when I'm in an exceptionally patient mood, I flip wildly over from Mr Impatient to being pretty serious about teaching novices every damn bit of info that they can absorb. Because the thing that drives me nuts is having game after game ruined by people staggering around without a clue. Some of us are gifted with intrinsic clue, or with rapid clue-aquisition abilities, and apparently some of us are not. But as far as I'm concerned, untrained noobs just bring the game down. And anyway, to bring this back on topic, giving noobs scripts, if one uses scripts oneself, is part of this.



I fully agree with what Matt said about scripts being like better hardware, with of course the note that I can share scripts, to help others get better.



In other news, on the Jeremy-is-impatient-with-noobs front, people being ignorant and pompous at the same time pisses me off. That's ignorant as in not being able to keep scripting and cheating straight, as if they were related activities, any more than gaming and cheating are related. And you can decide for yourself it there's pomposity afoot.
Oh, and by the way, I dunno wtf "The Proceeding" means in that context. Surely this is a misspelling of "preceding", which is the _opposite_ of what he really meant? Not that spelling mistakes are intolerable, but again, ignorance + arrogance => twitching Jabberwock.
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Interesting

Postby oldf_dr_death » Sun Apr 06, 2003 9:40 pm

they said changing the video cards setting to 99 enables u to run faster and play faster than most people, also glid in the air forever with jet packs....


I think I saw that the other day on RH. I was killed and while waiting to respawn saw someone in a jet pack just staying in mid air firing at the hive. Couldn't figure out how he could stay so long in the exact same spot. I'll have to keep my eye out for that again.
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Postby zzSleeper » Sun Apr 06, 2003 10:16 pm

they said changing the video cards setting to 99 enables u to run faster and play faster than most people, also glid in the air forever with jet packs....


this is total bs. it most certainly does not let you run faster
and skillful tapping of the jump button is what lets you float for very long (not indefinately) not a higher frame rate. i have done both at a variety of (set) frame rates. frame rate is an in game CVAR not a video card setting, which caps the number of fps the game runs at

also, as jabber mentioned LMG rof cannot be improved by scripting. you're probably mistaking it for a shotgun
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Postby Niteowl » Sun Apr 06, 2003 11:05 pm

higher FPS CAN let you stay in the air indefinitely, this is a known issue that will be addressed in 1.1. higher FPS can also let you BUILD things faster as a marine.

frame rate can be limited by having vsync on, which is a monitor setting.
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Postby zzSleeper » Mon Apr 07, 2003 1:57 pm

hrmm.. my mistake
an interesting bug
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